People of Science with Jon Choy

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Connect with Caroline on LinkedIn

Takeaways:

• Advice for those interested in a PhD:
  • Experience: Get some full-time experience in the lab, running your own experiments and gaining a realistic sense of what it’s like doing research (because this is what you’ll be doing during graduate school)! Also, talking with graduate students can be extremely helpful in gaining a realistic sense of what this a PhD may be like—it’s OK to ask the hard-hitting questions!!
  • You come first: It’s important to watch out for yourself, keeping your health a priority. Thus, pick programs and get the information you need to figure out which programs will support you best (ie mental health resources, stipend amount, research environments etc). This may be done before choosing where to apply to upon acceptances.
  • Gap year(s) is valuable: Applying to graduate school during school like Caroline did can be stressful and rushed, taking a gap year to extend your timeline can provide clarity to your goals and decision-making process.
• There are multiple things to consider when choosing where to apply, and what those things are may be unique to everyone. In addition to location and the research labs available, how accessible the school’s website was one factor in the application process for Caroline.
• Upon acceptances, talk with people at those schools and consider what matters to you most (research, locations, environment etc).
  • Also digging deep into the programs and what it entails can reveal nuances that you may have not known before. For example, Stanford BioSci does not have a TA requirement, rather other service-related things to do instead. This may be a consideration when figuring out where to apply to or choosing a program for your PhD.
• There are many careers for PhD graduates outside of academia. As Caroline mentioned, she was unaware of Science outreach as a career for PhD graduates until recently. She plans to develop her career interests in this field throughout her time in Stanford.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jon: Hi, everyone. Thanks for tuning into the people of science podcast, where we highlight experiences in research. My name is Jon. And today we’ll be talking with Caroline, who is a first year PhD student in Stanford’s bio-science program.

[00:00:14] Caroline: So I’m Caroline Schuing. I did my undergrad at University of Michigan born and raised in Michigan, southeast area, metro Detroit. I am now starting my first year of my PhD at Stanford University in the biosciences program.

And my first little rotation in the Department of Molecular and Cellular Physiology, which is just one of the programs that I’m in under the larger umbrella of biosciences is with Dr. Miriam Goodman.

[00:00:40] Jon: Rotations are one of the main components. in the beginning of a PhD program. Before we dive into Caroline’s first year experience, she’ll first introduce what rotations are.

[00:00:50] Caroline: You’re going to be looking for someone who you want to do your thesis with in the end. And one really nice way that they facilitate that is by letting you just do these kind of no strings attached rotations to different labs.

So what that would look like is you reach out to a PI, either just cold calling style, or maybe someone who you’ve heard of by word of mouth, and then you reach out to them and you say, Hey, I’m interested in, you know, maybe seeing some of the projects you’re working on in person. And usually they’ll have you over for maybe a six to eight to 10 week kind of rotation depending on the style of the research.

And then you’re good to go. You see in the lab, you’ve gotten your vibes, and you decide whether or not you want to maybe. Think of that as one of your more serious options for a thesis lab. And I would say, on average, most people do anywhere from two to four.

[00:01:33] Jon: Next, Carolina provides additional information on rotations, at Stanford and some of her interests in different topics that she may like to pursue during the rotations. Finally, she gives some advice for those who have just begun rotating.

[00:01:48] Caroline: My rotation this quarter, because they have a quarter system here, which for me was new. I’m so used to trimesters. But they have a quarter, so it’s kind of like roughly supposed to be one rotation per quarter.

Your first one is a little bit longer because they want you to just really adhere to a timeline of around eight weeks, whereas your, your next subsequent rotations can be as short or as long as you want them, which I think is awesome because if you know you either do or don’t want to be in this lab, just, you know call it a day and you’re done maybe after four weeks or something. But I think my, my next rotation I already set up. It is still within my department, but it’s just really cool novel research. It’s about nanobodies and protein homeostasis. And I was just like, wow, that sounds awesome. I really want to try that.

So definitely I’m doing that next, probably sometime next year, early next year. And then after that, I think I will actually use that, you know, kind of freedom of rotation for maybe one or maybe two more rotations. I kind of want to keep it at three there’s some cool research going on in the Department of Psychiatry here, actually.

So, I really was interested in that. I might find my way over to, like, cardiac research. That’s something I have a teeny bit of background in and I find interesting. So, kind of haven’t figured that out yet. I think most people here generally pick their first rotation and then kind of leave it up to, to just time.

Because as you’re here in person, you’re going to meet so many more people than you would have ever found online, let’s say, if that’s how you’re looking. So oftentimes grad students will say, just pick one rotation that you’re going to start with and let yourself see what’s here to decide your next ones.

Don’t plan it all out already because you’re going to get here and meet someone and be like, gosh, I wish I would have left the spot open because I actually really want to rotate with them. So that’s my advice is to really just pick one and, you know, maybe have that set up already before you come here.

[00:03:25] Jon: With this understanding of rotations, Caroline will now dive deeper into the structure of the Stanford bio sciences PhD program.

[00:03:35] Caroline: So how, how Stanford’s PhD program works is I would say one of the more ideal ones, which is why I’m here, right? It’s basically called, it’s called an umbrella program. So how it works is there’s like this larger umbrella of biosciences. And you know, all schools will have a different name for this.

Sometimes it’s biology, sometimes it’s just literally the graduate school. And then underneath that you have different departments that you can kind of apply to. So if I was applying to Stanford Biosciences, they would make me pick a kind of like department that I want to rank as my first choice. And that’s kind of just honing in on what sort of research you would want to do if you’re not doing a research based PhD, it’s a little bit different how that works, because you are just applying to the school itself, whereas here I think for most schools that are kind of like more STEM related PhDs, it’s very standard to apply to an umbrella program style, and then you kind of narrow that in.

And to your question yes, we have to rotate. I think for Stanford, how it works is your first one has to be interdepartmental. So, you know, someone who’s in your department, faculty that are in your little area but then after that, you’re actually free to rotate wherever you want. So I’m in molecular and cellular physiology right now.

But if I wanted to do structural bio, if I wanted to do chemistry or like bioengineering, even I could rotate through any of those labs

[00:04:45] Jon: Another aspect of sort of your first year is classes.

So maybe can you talk more about, you know, how’s the rotation been in your department and beyond that, sort of how has classes have been,

[00:04:56] Caroline: yeah, for sure.

So far, well, I will preface this by saying we’ve been in class for about a week and I just started my rotation a couple of days ago, my first one. So it is a little fresh, but you know, we’ve already gotten some vibes on just being here and like talking to people , so I can speak to that for sure.

I would say the class structure is such that your first two years are pretty much the only time you’re gonna be taking like kind of intense classes. So right now we’re taking one or two classes. Nothing too crazy. They really do want you to focus on your research here and I appreciate you did that a lot.

So your first year, if anything, would be the most class heavy out of anything. Not that it really is. It’s just the most that you will be taking and by second year, you should be wrapping that up and then focusing just on your research or thesis. So, or at that point, I guess it would be your thesis lab. So focusing more on your dissertation work and kind of like fleshing that out.

And the first year you’re taking, you know, maybe some basic foundational courses, things that will really just level the playing field for everyone coming into the program. Making sure you know your stuff. If it’s, you know, cell bio, making sure you know how genetics work and how cells work and all that.

If you have a class called how cells work and everyone plans to take that. So it’s really foundational stuff. And then as you get into your, your first year and your second year you really can start to specialize. So they have maybe like macromolecules course or like something really neat that you want to look at.

Or maybe taking class on imaging facilities. Like we have the state of the art facilities here at Stanford. And so, you know, really getting to know how do those work. I want to get trained on that. I want to be able to apply that to my research. So, There are lots of different ways you can kind of paint it, I think, but for sure not, not too class heavy, if I had to say that.

Yeah, and then to the rotations half of it. So, you know, classes are obviously what you’re focusing on kind of your first year, I would say. And rotations are a little less intense, or at least they’re kind of by standard supposed to be, because you are taking classes. But it’s just to kind of get a flavor of the research.

You know, get a taste in your mouth. How does it feel to do certain types of experiments or certain types of research in that field? Getting a vibe on the lab. Like, is this someone I can see being my boss? Is this someone I can see being my mentor for that long? Am I getting supported? Like, are there people in the lab who are welcoming and are willing to teach me?

And like, you know, what’s the emphasis on training? These are all questions that you’ll You know, maybe hear from other people who are telling you about rotations, or you’ll just kind of come up with these yourself as you’re going through it. And you’re like, okay, got vibes.

So far I’ve loved my rotation. I think they check off all the boxes. They’re very training friendly. They’re very welcoming. The type of research they do, which is actually with C elegans worms. I thought that was so novel and so cool. I’m more of like a mouse and cell girl. So this is just something totally out of my field and I love that.

[00:07:26] Jon: Well, no, I’m glad, I’m glad the vibes have been good so far, even, you know, a week in. Are there sort of any other responsibilities as a grad student for your first year? Like, is there a TAing requirement or anything like that?

[00:07:39] Caroline: So that’s such an interesting question, because if I were at any other school, the answer would actually be yes, you do have to TA. It’s kind of a part of the package, right? Like we’re paying for tuition and your stipend, but you gotta pay us back by working these hours. So I actually chose Stanford. One of the reasons I did choose it is because they don’t require that.

They don’t make you have a teaching requirement. So This may, I think, have changed in recent years, that they, they made it non required and now they have other things you can do instead, like a service department, where maybe you’re doing outreach, or you’re going to a local high school, and you’re helping them learn about STEM, which, like, I would much rather do that than teach or TA a class here that’s just my personal preference, but there are many options that you can do that aren’t TAing, and I think they’ve realized that over time, but I will say that many other schools I applied to did have at least a one, two, or three semester TA requirement and that is, you know, something to think about when you’re applying because that’s kind of time being taken away from your main focus of being there, which is to do research and to take classes.

[00:08:38] Jon: We just heard about the Stanford bio-sciences PhD program as a whole, including details about classes, rotations, as well as this unique substitute for TAing.

Let’s now dive into how Caroline actually got involved with research.

[00:08:54] Caroline: I love talking about that. I think a lot of people do because it’s something they’re so passionate about and close to, but I, I actually started out as not really a cell bio person.

I was starting out in neuro. I was working in a psychology lab. It was very If you can call it almost zoomed out biology, right, we were looking at a phenotype of like a person from very outside of their body. It was not too invasive, not very molecular. I ended up thinking, okay, this is cool and all, but like, I kind of want to look more closely, like more nitty gritty.

So I ended up switching labs and I joined a pharmacology lab that’s looking at epilepsy and specifically pediatric epilepsy. And It was a ton of cellular work. They did mouse work. They did like a lot of biochemistry. They did tons of kind of molecular model work and they, they even were working on genetic therapies, which I thought was so cool.

And so that really was my first exposure to, I think, grad students who were actually happy and were really passionate about what they were doing because I hadn’t really gotten that vibe too far in my other lab. I didn’t even know what a PhD really was. That was not something that was accessible to me.

I didn’t know that that was an option post grad, especially like directly out of undergrad. I thought for sure you would need a master’s first, right, which that cost money. That’s a huge barrier to entry for a lot of people, including me. So getting to know a lot of the other grad students in that lab, you could kind of just be like, Hey, look, you’re shadowing me.

This is the day in the life. Like, this is what it could be like if you did a PhD and you know, they didn’t do masters. They just went straight there to capture the work. You know, there’s so many paths that were possible for that. So I’d say the biggest, I think, probably advantage that I got out of working at that lab, which I was in for almost five years, I should add.

Definitely loved it a lot, which is why I stayed there. Great mentorship. And my boss was just awesome. So they really gave me an idea of what it’s like to be, you know, a day in the life of a graduate student or maybe someone who’s in academia post grad. And I loved it. I loved the vibe.

[00:10:39] Jon: Next Caroline talks about how the University of Michigan helped her get involved with research early.

[00:10:46] Caroline: I think I will preface that by saying I’m very privileged to have gone to a university that has such a huge kind of emphasis on research focus. So they are, you know, one of the leading, I went to University of Michigan, they’re one of the public, I mean, leading public research institutions, if not in the world.

They really try to put an emphasis on getting as many students as they can into that research sphere, just because it is so formative, right? You’re, you’re getting to see something outside of class that is actually applying the things that are learning about in a way that you can never get that for just reading a textbook, right?

So I, I had actually started off by just on a whim, applying to this residential program that was kind of a living, learning community sort of set up where, you know, they kind of, they would guide you through, I guess, the process of applying to your first research position. And that was kind of part of it.

You all lived in the dorm together. You all kind of got that shared, like, consideration of how to do things and maybe like supporting one another through that process. So even as a freshman, I was like, already getting kind of plunged into this world of research and didn’t realize how lucky I was to have that until later on, when I met, you know, Maybe juniors and seniors were like, gosh, I haven’t even really had the opportunity to like get to work for that yet.

I didn’t know that was even possible. So now I’m very adamant about making sure that freshmen and sophomores definitely have exposure to that and they know that it’s not too early, you don’t have to be smart or do you know you don’t have to think you’re any sort of thing. You just have to start doing it and just see if it’s what you want to do.

[00:12:07] Jon: Well, no, that’s awesome. That university of Michigan, sort of the research environment kind of helped you get sort of segue into this whole world.

University of Michigan. .I think the weather down there is you know, markedly different than Palo Alto. So, so maybe, yeah, maybe can you speak on your application process more and, you know, how you came to choose Stanford.

[00:12:31] Caroline: I really like talking about this one too, because I think it’s very nuanced.

For each person to I mean, obviously, it’s very fit dependent PhD, you’re here for five years, it’s not just like you’re taking classes, right? Like, you’re going to be interfacing with a lot of people. And you want to make sure that the culture of the university is very good if you’re going to be there for that long.

So and I mean, another factor, you can’t see it, it’s so bright, but I mean, it’s so nice. It’s like 90 something, and it’s just perfect. And You know, I’m, I was from Michigan. I really wanted to get somewhere that was like different. I didn’t know I was gonna be this far away, to be honest, but I, you know, I definitely wanted to get away a little bit.

Trying to think back, when I first started picking schools, it was actually kind of just, On a whim, I was like, you know, either names that I’ve heard and I was like, maybe it’s a far shot. I’m just going to give it a go kind of applied to one in each part of the US sort of thing. So I applied to some school in North Carolina.

I applied to UNC Chapel Hill. I applied to Northwestern, Harvard, University of Michigan, here. That was like pretty much it. I didn’t want to go crazy, but just kind of like one in each point of the US and see what you know stuck and I definitely chose them if I’m being honest based on how accessible their website was and how much information I could get about the program through that because sometimes you would be so hard pressed to even find information about the program that you’re like, gosh, you know, is this really someplace I want to go?

Are they going to be this closed off about information once I’m there? You know, so it was definitely getting to it. See how, like, how much support are they giving me as I’m applying before I’m even there? Because that will tell you a lot about how much support you’re going to get once you’re there. And Stanford was one of those schools that really had a lot online.

They had a lot of things listed out. You know, how to help yourself out, maybe how it goes. Like, they even had websites that were like, what it would be like to be in your first year of a PhD. Like, there’s a little video or something. You know, that really sold me. I, I like that they cared enough about students who weren’t even at the campus yet to, like, do that and inform you.

So I would say another big factor was, you know, you’re applying. It’s pretty formulaic. You, you have your. You know, letters of rec and whatnot. You’re writing essays about research you would maybe like to do at that institution if you can. I didn’t know anyone at the universities that was applying to.

Some people have that advantage and so it’s good for you, best foot forward, but I just did not have that. So I wrote theoretically about, you know, maybe someone I would like to do research with. And then the big, I think, factor in my decision was actually the admitted students weekend. So, I had interviews on Zoom, because I interviewed two years ago at this point, so because of COVID, it was on Zoom, and we had an admitted students day, where if you got in, you would go there for the weekend.

And I noticed that Stanford, among the other schools I was looking at, was the most vibrant, I think, with people that were from either different perspectives, or different parts of the world, or they were just bringing together people that were from different disciplines and getting us to talk to one another.

That was something I didn’t see at any of the other schools as strongly. Or at all in some cases, so that that really made me think, wow, they really value collaboration here and they value getting people who are not all from the same, you know, place of mind, perspective, field, anything like that. They’re just drawing all these things together.

So that really sold me.

[00:15:31] Jon: One important aspect of a PhD is research. Specifically, the kind of research that you will be conducting. Here, Caroline provides some insight on how you may choose where to apply to and the programs that you may apply to based on your research interests.

[00:15:47] Caroline: I think definitely look at, look at it from a perspective of not like what’s just the title of the department: Does my stuff align with that? Does my background align with that? Really look at the research because you might realize that even though let’s say, for example, the title might be neurology.

If you’re really interested in looking at a like subset of sensory neurons and that’s like your thing that really gets you excited about science and let’s say you go there and there’s nobody doing that then like it’s like why did you even apply if that’s what you really want to do so sometimes they will as they’re interviewing you kind of ask you about that like hey what are the sorts of research that you are either a familiar with or be you want to do and is that something we can help you out with like they’re they’re really just there to like help align your interests it’s less of like a grilling session when they’re interviewing you.

They really always want to make sure that your research that you want to do is something that they can provide you with. So it’s kind of two way street, you know, for fashion. But I would say when I was looking, I definitely didn’t really have too much of a preference about the type of research specifically that I was doing.

I did know that I was interested in ion channels and membrane proteins. So that was my background and I found that really interesting and cool. I was not closed off to really anything and that’s something that really helped me out. I think I was like, this department has a lot of things I would like to do.

Like I would be interested in like expressing, you know, proteins in some cells to look at some cool thing that they’re doing or like there’s things that I kind of was familiar with but not too familiar with. I was also interested in meeting and structural bio at some point and I noticed they have a ton of collaborations going on between my department and struct bio.

So that was something that really piqued my interest for sure. Whereas some of the other schools that I was looking at, like, they didn’t have that collaboration that was very accessible to see online from what I could see.

[00:17:22] Jon: The exact timeline for the application process can look different for many people. Here, Caroline provides her timeline: from applying to actually enrolling into Stanford.

[00:17:33] Caroline: I think everyone’s path is different. Like, for example, I deferred. I actually got accepted and said, I’ll see you guys in a year if that’s okay. And they said, sure. And so I took a gap year to actually finish up some work I was doing.

And for other reasons. But I’ll get into that. So, I think, I was trying to think, when my, most of my schools, I think it was like after Thanksgiving, so definitely like November, late November, very late November, or early December was when they were due. I was applying in my last year of undergrad, so I was finishing up my degree.

And I wasn’t quite sure what I wanted to do yet in that summer. I was just like, if I get in, we’ll figure that out later. So, they, you know, have you submit your application by that time. It’s the end of the year. You usually hear back in like January or February if you’ve gotten interviews.

And that’s around then is when they start interviewing you. And you’ll usually hear back by at least March because most places have you decide by April 15th. I think that was our deadline. And like, at that point, I wouldn’t have even finished my degree, really. I was just finishing up, so it was a little stressful to try to figure out, you know, there are a lot of factors at play.

My family is mostly in Michigan, as were a lot of people that I care about, so there was a little bit of, you know, emotional factor at play there. Like, I really want to go so far away from home. And I think everyone has to make the decision for themselves, but like that little timeframe is just going to be really stressful because you’re trying to figure out, gosh, I have to decide my whole decision here and I just finished interviews at all these places.

So by around April, we’ll figure that out. And then most people would either have, let’s say, maybe if they’re already checking at like a lab or something, they would maybe continue that for the summer until they move out. Some schools like Stanford even has a summer program. If you want to come early, you can apply for it. It’s called advance and they, they let you start your rotations a little early, or at least just start a, you know, lab job that you can kind of just get here a little early and start getting used to campus. Some schools do have summer programs like that. I just, I didn’t really look into them too much.

I knew I wanted to defer because I didn’t have any money, like, I didn’t have any money saved up, and I knew I would need that coming to California. There’s also some health problems with my family that I just wanted to spend a little more time with them before, like, going so far away.

They’re not getting any younger, so I wanted to do that, and also I had ongoing projects, collaborations in my old lab that I did want to see through before leaving. So, Stanford said, okay, no problem, we’ll see you in a year. Like, you’re just as good a year from now as you were now, so that’s fine. And here we are.

[00:19:44] Jon: Next, Caroline opens up about the benefits of a potential gap year and compares that option with her experience of deferring her Stanford acceptance.

[00:19:54] Caroline: If you’re kind of scared about deferring, maybe just wait, right? Like, maybe start really educating yourself on the process, but then wait to apply until your gap year.

I think that honestly that would make it a lot easier to apply. Having to deal with interviews with classes and all this other stuff and work, like, that was a lot. I really wish I almost would have waited in some ways. I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who said I regretted my gap year. That’s just, like, you’re always going to have a really productive time having a gap year as long as you craft it, like, meaningfully and you have some place to out.

I think it can definitely be beneficial. I think my personal thing is that everyone should take a gap year between undergrad and grad. I think it’s just so, not only for your mental health, but just also for, like, maturing as a person and just really figuring out what you want from that experience. I wouldn’t have been ready to get the most out of grad school last year and now I am.

So, you know, that’s a big difference.

[00:20:43] Jon: Next, Caroline talks about where she sees herself after completing her PhD.

[00:20:48] Caroline: So I see myself, I think getting into science outreach for sure. That is not something I knew existed before last year. Actually, it’s very new to me. I kind of thought, Oh, well, maybe I’ll just go into academia. Maybe I’ll do a postdoc or maybe I’ll go into industry because, like, I kind of wasn’t sure if I wanted to stick in academia for that long.

You know, I don’t know what the vibes will be when I’m done with my PhD. I might be like, All right, I’m ready for a change of pace. Let’s do this. So there’s also a ton of biotech startups in this area. So I knew that that might be something attractive to me as I’m getting older here. But I think for sure ending up one day, like, kind of five or ten years from now, ending up in science outreach is something I’m very passionate about doing especially in this area.

I think there’s some, you know, definitely opportunities to get involved with that.

[00:21:29] Jon: Yeah, and I guess science outreach as a, as a career. Maybe could you clarify that a little bit more on what that may look like? Yeah.

[00:21:38] Caroline: Yeah. So I think the best way I can sum it up is there were two people that I can remember, at least, were actually speakers at some career, career day fairs that we had at University of Michigan.

And one of them that stuck out to me was someone who actually works in policy. She did her PhD, she, you know, went through the whole rigmarole that we go through in academia and research. I think she said she was working as either a postdoc or a junior faculty member, I think, or a junior professor kind of like an assistantship.

And then she realized that she wanted to do policy. And she was like, look, I know how the system works. I’ve been through it myself. And like, I know how it works. Now what I want to do is I want to go into making sure that, let’s say, women or underrepresented minorities have a pipeline to get into STEM.

And like, there’s no funding maybe going towards that in certain states or certain schools, and she really wanted to change that. So seeing how passionate she was talking about that, I’m like, that’s kind of what I wanted to do, but I didn’t know that that was a job option. Because I don’t have any policy background, like who am I to talk about, you know, that kind of thing, but it turns out you definitely can get jobs that are involved with that and actually going through the process yourself is something very advantageous because you know how the system works, you know how hard it is for certain opportunities to be made available and how privilege works in academia, especially, so I definitely would say that was a little key turning point as I was watching her talk about her job.

I was like, wow, this is like dead on what I want to do. Yeah. So yeah, the path to get there I think is a little less clear because science outreach is very vague. It can mean a lot of things. It can also mean a lot of paths to get there. Personally, for me, what that looks like is right now, you know, I just joined my first year.

I really want to get involved in some orgs this year about, like, maybe mentoring other undergrads or high school students who want to get into STEM and don’t know how. Maybe that looks like, you know, a mentorship program where as people are applying, you review their, maybe, I don’t know, research statements or something like that.

Maybe offering guidance and mentorship to younger students, something like that. There’s a lot of forms I think that could take for sure. At least at this like stage of my career, but later on it might be a little more high level like policy change work. But yeah, I plan to learn more about that.

[00:23:41] Jon: Finally Caroline, ends with some advice on those countries. And pursuing a PhD.

[00:23:47] Caroline: Gosh, it’s hard to pick advice because I think it’s just there’s so many answers that could be helpful. But I think if I had to say, I think the most obvious one for me would be make sure that before starting to apply for PhD programs that you have spent at least a few months doing full time research and know what that looks like because personally I think doing research part time classes which is how I started out doing research because I mean what else do you think in classes we can’t work full time obviously.

Getting a little like kind of mini taste of that is really not the same as being there all day every day and having to pull up with your own experiments and have a little more agency when it comes to designing that process. So, it’s very different than just helping out with some experiments here and there or maybe like helping out with some manuscripts or you know whatever that looks like for your research field.

Make sure that you have spent maybe a summer or like a few months doing full time research so that you know what that. Work style looks like and what that lifestyle looks like when you’re working in a lab. Because for me, that’s when I really, I think. I fell in love with a little more I really liked that rhythm of work and I kind of, I don’t know, it wasn’t that I didn’t like doing it part time classes it’s just everything was so stressful that I had a really hard time sitting down and enjoying the process so getting to do that full time without the distraction of class if you could call it that. That was really helpful and made me think, okay, I’m glad I did this, because had I not, I might have been a little more wary about doing a PhD, because I wasn’t sure what that would look like, and getting to see grad students in their day to day life and kind of pepper them with questions about what they thought about it. That’s the best thing you can do. Like, join a lab that has grad students. Ask them about it. Even if you aren’t in the lab, maybe email the lab that is doing things that you would like to do and be like, hey, Can you like, you know, walk me through what a day in your life looks like? Like, what is this like?

What’s your, what were your doubts about the process? You know, any grad student I know would be more than happy to, like, just sit down and spend even 20 minutes talking to you about something like that. Because, I mean, it depends, I think, per lab and per school for sure what their experiences are, but That would be the best piece of advice.

I think it would make sure that you’ve experienced what it would be like to be in a PhD, whether through someone else or yourself because you don’t want to end up here. You’ve worked so hard to get here and then realize maybe this isn’t for you. Maybe something else is more of your alley. Yeah, that’d be the number one and I think maybe number two and three would be like talking to other people, maybe in the school about what their vibes are on it.

I kind of did that after applying, so maybe that was a little bit late stage, but. making sure that you’re really getting some information from people who are not, you know, I guess on their best behavior, so to speak, like they’re not gonna lie to you about it. It’s like, here, they’re just here. There’s nothing to lose.

So I definitely asked some people like, you know, how’s the pay? Are you happy? Do you feel like you have work life balance? Like you already feel burnt out after year two, like, ask, don’t be afraid to ask those hard hitting kind of punchy questions. Because in the end, if they answer no to any of those, that’s, that’s a huge deal.

And that will affect your quality of life for the next five years. Like There are a few places that really just struggle to pay their students enough and I think that that’s a huge source of conflict for, for some universities, even in California, which is surprising. So making sure that you know that going in and being like, okay.

I know this is going to be a stressful journey, so what can make it less stressful? Can my school offer me either mental health resources or better pay or better housing, subsidized, you know, places to live? What can they offer me that’s going to make my quality of life, you know, a little bit better while I’m going through this very stressful journey? So ask yourself that. That’s number two.

And then number three would probably be taking a gap year for sure. I think if, if your undergrad was as chaotic as mine was, you’re, you’re going to be a little burnt out. That’s unavoidable and unfortunate, but I think really taking a year to be like, what do I want to get out of grad school?

And also I mean, if you have the ability to like maybe keep on a job or like get even an internship going, that might even add more insight to your process or your decision. I do realize that yeah. I was lucky to have a tech position already set up that I could just be like, Hey, can we like extend the contract a year?

And they’re like, wait, no, sounds good. Some people don’t have that option. And that is, you know, a barrier to entry for sure. But I think being able to take a gap year was probably one of the smarter decisions. I could sit down, really take my time and make sure I knew that I wanted to do this.